Church autonomy

[NTChristian]

Baptists and other congregational churches insist that church congregations are supposed to be independent of each other with no outside earthly authority to answer to.

How can this be true when:

1. (Acts chapter 15) Local churches submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to determine Christian doctrine and the standards of behavior?

2. (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5) The Apostles, Paul and their designees had the authority to appoint leaders for local congregations?

3. (I Corinthians 16:1-3) Local congregations were obligated to raise money for use by the universal church as a whole under the direction of Paul and the Apostles (and likely the elders in Jerusalem)?

What book, chapter and verse will I find a Biblical declaration that local churches are autonomous?

[Bob]

luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Matthew 28:16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always , even to the end of the age."

Actually the Holy Ghost runs the Church through Christ disciples.

Peace
Bob

[NTChristian]

Actually the Holy Ghost runs the Church through Christ disciples.

I haven’t said otherwise.  But coupling the Bible with the ongoing work of the Holy Ghost is prima scriptura, not sola scriptura.  The Holy Ghost can do His work only if people allow Him to tell them when they are wrong.  I have known some Baptists that utterly refuse to let this happen.  God’s faithful had the Holy Ghost long before they had the Bible and the Holy Ghost is all sufficient.  The most the Bible can do is serve as a record of what the Holy Ghost had done in the past.  People that follow sola scriptura fail to acknowledge the (inspired) human input that was required to write, compile, edit, copy and then translate the Bible. The Holy Ghost works through tradition and church authority as much as He does the Bible.  The Holy Ghost does not work through the Bible alone.

[Bob]

Actually the Holy Ghost runs the Church through Christ disciples.

I haven’t said otherwise.  But coupling the Bible with the ongoing work of the Holy Ghost is prima scriptura, not sola scriptura.  The Holy Ghost can do His work only if people allow Him to tell them when they are wrong.  I have known some Baptists that utterly refuse to let this happen.  God’s faithful had the Holy Ghost long before they had the Bible and the Holy Ghost is all sufficient.  The most the Bible can do is serve as a record of what the Holy Ghost had done in the past.  People that follow sola scriptura fail to acknowledge the (inspired) human input that was required to write, compile, edit, copy and then translate the Bible. The Holy Ghost works through tradition and church authority as much as He does the Bible.  The Holy Ghost does not work through the Bible alone.

Not really, the Bible tells you to pray for guidance and it also tells you that the Holy Ghost intercede in our prayers and ask for things we don't even know we need. Sola scriptura has to have application or there is no use in the scriptures at all. The bible is clear that the Spirit is your teacher and helper and to deny that would be unbiblical. And to be unbiblical is not the definition of Sola scriptura.

[NTChristian]

Actually the Holy Ghost runs the Church through Christ disciples.

I haven’t said otherwise.  But coupling the Bible with the ongoing work of the Holy Ghost is prima scriptura, not sola scriptura.  The Holy Ghost can do His work only if people allow Him to tell them when they are wrong.  I have known some Baptists that utterly refuse to let this happen.  God’s faithful had the Holy Ghost long before they had the Bible and the Holy Ghost is all sufficient.  The most the Bible can do is serve as a record of what the Holy Ghost had done in the past.  People that follow sola scriptura fail to acknowledge the (inspired) human input that was required to write, compile, edit, copy and then translate the Bible. The Holy Ghost works through tradition and church authority as much as He does the Bible.  The Holy Ghost does not work through the Bible alone.

Not really, the Bible tells you to pray for guidance and it also tells you that the Holy Ghost intercede in our prayers and ask for things we don't even know we need. Sola scriptura has to have application or there is no use in the scriptures at all. The bible is clear that the Spirit is your teacher and helper and to deny that would be unbiblical. And to be unbiblical is not the definition of Sola scriptura.

If the Bible is our final and sole authority, then you don’t need the Holy Ghost to guide us.  Appealing to the Holy Ghost means giving Him equal authority with the Bible. And if the Holy Ghost has authority, He can vest in things other than the Bible.

[Bob]

If the Bible is our final and sole authority, then you don’t need the Holy Ghost to guide us.  Appealing to the Holy Ghost means giving Him equal authority with the Bible. And if the Holy Ghost has authority, He can vest in things other than the Bible.

I am beginning to think you have not read this book we are discussing. Who is and where is the Holy Ghost and what is His tool that He uses through us?

I repeat that if there is no application with the bible then there is no need for it at all.

[Bob]

Now as to the "Church autonomy" why is it that Christ addressed the seven churches of Revelations individually? Is there an apostle living today?

[NTChristian]

I am beginning to think you have not read this book we are discussing. Who is and where is the Holy Ghost and what is His tool that He uses through us?

I repeat that if there is no application with the bible then there is no need for it at all.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

The Bible has a purpose, but God does not work by the Bible alone.

[Bob]

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

The Bible has a purpose, but God does not work by the Bible alone.

Hi NT

Are you saying that prophesy will be added to the Bible? Or are you saying that prophesy will confirm the Bible?

IHS
Bob

[NTChristian]

Hi NT

Are you saying that prophesy will be added to the Bible? Or are you saying that prophesy will confirm the Bible?

Prophecy can be given without being added to the Bible.  But any prophecy that will be given in the future must be filtered through the Bible in order to ascertain its legitimacy. And we must continually run our interpretation of the prophecy found in the Bible pass the Holy Ghost.  Growing up I fell for the Magog = Soviet Union dogma, but then the Soviet Union collapsed, so maybe that dogma is wrong.

I also fell for the dogma that said the Beast of Revelation chapter 13 would come out of a 10 nation organization of European countries.  The Common Market was in place so that this particular interpretation made sense to me.  But the Common Market morphed into the European Community and that organization currently has more than 10 members.  So clearly what I believed at one time is wrong.  And now I am not so sure about what exactly will happen.

I also always assumed that that the mark of the Beast and the monitoring of everything that was bought and sold were figurative.  They were only symbolic of the tyranny to come, but not indicative of an absolute tyranny.  I didn’t think an absolute tyranny was technically possible- even someplace like Auschwitz had a black market.  But with RFID technology and bar codes on things like individual apples, I know that what the Bible describes is totally possible.  I would still be following false interpretations of prophecy and false doctrines if I weren’t willing to let the Holy Ghost guide me by using tools apart from the Bible.

[Bob]

Prophecy can be given without being added to the Bible.  But any prophecy that will be given in the future must be filtered through the Bible in order to ascertain its legitimacy. And we must continually run our interpretation of the prophecy found in the Bible pass the Holy Ghost.  Growing up I fell for the Magog = Soviet Union dogma, but then the Soviet Union collapsed, so maybe that dogma is wrong.

I also fell for the dogma that said the Beast of Revelation chapter 13 would come out of a 10 nation organization of European countries.  The Common Market was in place so that this particular interpretation made sense to me.  But the Common Market morphed into the European Community and that organization currently has more than 10 members.  So clearly what I believed at one time is wrong.  And now I am not so sure about what exactly will happen.

I also always assumed that that the mark of the Beast and the monitoring of everything that was bought and sold were figurative.  They were only symbolic of the tyranny to come, but not indicative of an absolute tyranny.  I didn’t think an absolute tyranny was technically possible- even someplace like Auschwitz had a black market.  But with RFID technology and bar codes on things like individual apples, I know that what the Bible describes is totally possible.  I would still be following false interpretations of prophecy and false doctrines if I weren’t willing to let the Holy Ghost guide me by using tools apart from the Bible.

There are some things that we are not meant to know. The problem is we as human beings want to know and sometimes we find ourselves deliberately jumping to answers that are not there. The Bible tells us that the antichrist will come from the north and from the Roman Empire. Now I like to think that that's either going to be Lebanon Syria or Turkey however I would never prophesy that because I have not been convinced that by the Holy Ghost. It is interesting though that Turkey previously was part of the Roman Empire and is currently part of NATO and the EU.

I totally agree with you that everything should be filtered through the Bible and that is what Sola scriptura is about. And of course the Bible tells us that the Holy Ghost does in fact use the word as His sword. Now if you say that the Bible is only a primary source of your doctrine it leads to the question if there is additional sources that would go beyond what the Bible says. This is where you run into the major problems of your doctrine. This is why you cannot understand the problem you posted concerning children and discipline. It appears from reading your post that you are refusing to filter this question through the Bible and you're going to some other source. On one hand you tell us that everything should be filtered through the Bible on the other hand you say that it should not be the sole authority. That's like me as attorney saying that the Supreme Court has the last word and then refusing to obey their decisions.

Blessings
Bob

[NTChristian]

There are some things that we are not meant to know. The problem is we as human beings want to know and sometimes we find ourselves deliberately jumping to answers that are not there.

There has to be a point at which we can and will fully understand prophecy, otherwise prophecy would not have been given.  If certain aspects of prophecy will always be hidden from us, then prophecy serves no purpose.  But in the meantime we can get so wrapped up in the Bible that we get tunnel vision and thus end up believing false ideas and doctrines. We must always have the ongoing input of the Holy Ghost to understand prophecy and indeed the Bible in general. 

The Bible tells us that the antichrist will come from the north and from the Roman Empire.

Where?  Are their particular verses that actually say this, or is this a matter of interpreting verses to make them say something some human wants them to say?

Now I like to think that that's either going to be Lebanon Syria or Turkey however I would never prophesy that because I have not been convinced that by the Holy Ghost.

Until the Holy Ghost decides to be more pro-active and thus make a definitive effort to guide us, I wouldn’t really want to speculate on this matter.  Don’t get so fixated on what you believe about this, or you may not see the Antichrist coming from a direction that you never expected.

It is interesting though that Turkey previously was part of the Roman Empire and is currently part of NATO and the EU.

What about Spain and Britain and Italy?  Don’t they meet these same criteria?

I totally agree with you that everything should be filtered through the Bible and that is what Sola scriptura is about.

To the BBF/IFB types the Bible plus anything else is not by the Bible alone.  In my experience most BBF/IFBs are also King James Only.  I am King James Only in that I do not trust any of the post-1611 English translations that I have ever examined, but I don’t accept BBF/IFB doctrine that says the King James is the only Bible possible, or that you cannot use textual criticism or historical scholarship to explain the King James Bible. The King James is no better than the original language documents are and certainly cannot be used to correct them.

Now if you say that the Bible is only a primary source of your doctrine it leads to the question if there is additional sources that would go beyond what the Bible says. This is where you run into the major problems of your doctrine.

Scientific endeavor and historical scholarship are both viable sources of doctrine in that they can be used to explain the Bible.  A case in point is the issue of the age of the earth.  Contrary to what some in fundamentalist circles claim the Bible does not expressly tell us how long the days of the creation week were.  But yet some people base their doctrine on those days being 24 hours.  I’ve even had Baptists tell me that I am not saved because I don’t believe what they say about the days of the creation week.

But yet science and history (and current events) tell us that the earth has not always had 24 hour solar days.  Archaeological artifacts and historical records from ancient peoples around the world clearly indicate that the earth’s solar days were once shorter and the solar year at one time had only 360 days.  And then both the Indian Ocean and Chilean Earthquake were so violent that they shook the earth on its axis. Both quakes shortened the solar day, albeit by milliseconds, but shortened the day nonetheless.  And in the midst of all of this, science is incapable of telling us anything about the age of the earth with any certainty for the simple fact that nobody on earth was around when the earth came into being.  So the Holy Ghost has recently guided me to understand that the age of the earth is not the issue.  Whether or not anything died before Adam and Eve sinned is the issue.  As long as God did not create living things just so they could die in a sinless world it doesn’t matter how old the earth is.  The days of the creation week may have been nanoseconds or they have been billions of years.

This is why you cannot understand the problem you posted concerning children and discipline. It appears from reading your post that you are refusing to filter this question through the Bible and you're going to some other source.

I am filtering the question through the Bible because I am examining the question in light of the Bible in its entirety.  A just God would not tell people to hit children in order to discipline them without establishing exact guidelines as to how it is to be done because God knows how easy hitting children to discipline them can end up being child abuse.  Try seeing this issue from the perspective of someone who was physically abused as a child and then maybe you will understand the issue.

On one hand you tell us that everything should be filtered through the Bible on the other hand you say that it should not be the sole authority.

Filtering everything through the Bible means that you have something to filter through the Bible.  So why would the Bible be the only source of authority?

[Bob]

There has to be a point at which we can and will fully understand prophecy, otherwise prophecy would not have been given.

Tell me NT what is the purpose of prophecy? Do you believe that God speaks to us wanting all of us to understand his message?

Matthew 13:14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Where?  Are their particular verses that actually say this, or is this a matter of interpreting verses to make them say something some human wants them to say?

Doesn't your KJV tell you that it was Rome that destroyed the Temple?

Until the Holy Ghost decides to be more pro-active and thus make a definitive effort to guide us, I wouldn’t really want to speculate on this matter.  Don’t get so fixated on what you believe about this, or you may not see the Antichrist coming from a direction that you never expected.

What about Spain and Britain and Italy?  Don’t they meet these same criteria? 

I don't worry about end times at all. You should buy yourself a new compass.

I am filtering the question through the Bible because I am examining the question in light of the Bible in its entirety.  A just God would not tell people to hit children in order to discipline them without establishing exact guidelines as to how it is to be done because

Then you are calling God unjust?

God knows how easy hitting children to discipline them can end up being child abuse.   

God drank wine, in fact His first miracle was making wine for a bunch of drunks and I am sure He knew how easy it is for man to become alcoholics, He condemned them. God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree but He put it there for Him to sin.

Try seeing this issue from the perspective of someone who was physically abused as a child and then maybe you will understand the issue.

You don't know what I have seen my friend.

Peace
Bob

[NTChristian]

Tell me NT what is the purpose of prophecy?

The purpose of prophecy is re-assure God’s people so they will not be alarmed by whatever happens in the future.

Do you believe that God speaks to us wanting all of us to understand his message?

Do you?

Matthew 13:14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Consider to whom this prophecy was directed- to people opposed to God.  Nobody can understand the Bible if they have closed their heart to God because they are not interested in God and don’t want to follow Him. But God’s followers should have every expectation that God will see to it that they can understand the Bible whenever God needs them to understand the Bible.

Doesn't your KJV tell you that it was Rome that destroyed the Temple?

No.  The Book of Acts ends before the Jewish revolt of 70 AD, and in all likelihood Paul and all of the Apostles except John were dead before the revolt began.  The Book of Revelation was most likely written near the end of John’s lifetime (circa 100 AD).  But if you use Revelation as either a historical record or an anti-Rome propaganda piece (as many ungodly historians and Bible scholars try to do) you destroy Revelation as a book of prophecy and it then serves no real purpose.  So there is no legitimate way to claim that the Bible says that Rome destroyed the Temple.

I don't worry about end times at all.

I don’t either anymore except when the interpretation of prophecy has doctrinal implications.

Then you are calling God unjust?

If a god says we should hit children to discipline them without imposing regulations as to how it is to be done, then that god is unjust.  But since the Lord did not impose any regulations on how we are to hit children (the way He did with adults), He has no intention of us ever hitting children.  So He is just.

God drank wine, in fact His first miracle was making wine for a bunch of drunks and I am sure He knew how easy it is for man to become alcoholics, He condemned them.

So you are saying that God is susceptible to the same frailties that humans are?  Some God.  The Lord God is incapable of sinning so He is incapable of abusing alcohol.  Humans are a different matter. And God’s first miracle was not making wine.  His first miracle was Genesis 1:1.

God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree but He put it there for Him to sin.

God put the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve the choice of whether or not to sin.  You make it sound like God compelled Adam and Eve to sin.  If He did, then He is unjust.

You don't know what I have seen my friend.

And you obviously don’t know what I have experienced.

[Bob]

The purpose of prophecy is re-assure God’s people so they will not be alarmed by whatever happens in the future.

No, the purpose of prophecy is to glorify God.

Do you?

See previous post Matthew 13:14

Consider to whom this prophecy was directed- to people opposed to God.  Nobody can understand the Bible if they have closed their heart to God because they are not interested in God and don’t want to follow Him. But God’s followers should have every expectation that God will see to it that they can understand the Bible whenever God needs them to understand the Bible.

 

Glad you agree.

No.  The Book of Acts ends before the Jewish revolt of 70 AD, and in all likelihood Paul and all of the Apostles except John were dead before the revolt began.  The Book of Revelation was most likely written near the end of John’s lifetime (circa 100 AD).  But if you use Revelation as either a historical record or an anti-Rome propaganda piece (as many ungodly historians and Bible scholars try to do) you destroy Revelation as a book of prophecy and it then serves no real purpose.  So there is no legitimate way to claim that the Bible says that Rome destroyed the Temple.

Unbelievable.

If a god says we should hit children to discipline them without imposing regulations as to how it is to be done, then that god is unjust.  But since the Lord did not impose any regulations on how we are to hit children (the way He did with adults), He has no intention of us ever hitting children.  So He is just.

I am not going to make a judgement of you NT but I will go no further with you.

Blessings
Bob